Susanne Bransgrove (Founder Liquid Gold Consultants) - Family Business Succession, The Discussion You NEED To Have Now

In today’s episode Managing partner Tim Whybourne caught up with the founder of Liquid Gold consultants, Susanne Bransgrove who specialises in assisting family enterprises in tackling the difficult issues of succession, next-generation education and integration, governance, and communication. Liquid Gold Consultants create unique solutions, using customised strategies and suitable structures to create better family cohesion, communication, governance, and focus.

Susanne is best known for providing strategic guidance to family businesses in the areas of ownership/family alignment, business governance improvements and smoother communication flow across organisations. Growing up in Germany as part of a third-generation family business has provided her with a sound foundation for understanding the range of issues that arise when needing to balance the performance of the family business with the differing needs of multiple generations.

In the episode, they cover how they deal with introducing children to wealth without removing their ambition, how to successfully transition a family business leadership from one generation to the next and how families can deal with intergenerational wealth transfer in a considered manner and the discussions we should be having now with our families not waiting for them to hear it for the first time in a will.

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Please see transcripts for the show below -

[00:00:00] Ryan Loehr: Welcome to the exchange podcast by EWL. As advisors to some of the most successful families in the country. Craig Emanuel, Tim Whybourne and I, Ryan Loehr, draw upon some of the best minds in the country. We believe that by exchanging ideas, we can deliver better advice and better outcomes for the families we worked for.

[00:00:32] Ryan Loehr: Now, we're inviting you on this journey. In this podcast, we interview some of the country's best investment managers, business advisors, bankers, and founders to share their valuable insights. And our hope is that with better information comes better decisions, helping you to achieve more financially. 

[00:00:53] Tim Whybourne: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Exchange by Emanuel Whybourne and Loehr.

[00:00:57] Tim Whybourne: I'm your host today, Tim Whybourne, and today I have the pleasure of [00:01:00] speaking with founder of Liquid Gold Consultants, Susanne Bransgrove. The business, Liquid Gold Consultants, specialises in supporting family business through the most difficult journey they will face, the transition process from one generation to the next.

[00:01:11] Tim Whybourne: It focuses on creating harmony between family and business governance and on building long term sustainable solutions. Susanna is passionate about bringing balance to families and business, creating workable governance structures, supporting the next generation to be the best leaders they can be, and to improve communication and trust between individual members of the family.

[00:01:31] Tim Whybourne: As the third generation of a German family business, Susanne's personal story speaks to the experience of many next generation members in family business. After struggling to forge her own identity within the family, but respected and included in family business matters, she built a successful career in the finance industry, with executive roles at both Macquarie Bank and ANZ in Australia.

[00:01:49] Tim Whybourne: And comes up Bank Bremen in Germany. Susanne has spent many years researching and collaborating with the family business specialists across Europe and the U. S. And she has brought all her knowledge and skill into Liquid [00:02:00] Gold Consultants to partner with family business to achieve long term solutions.

[00:02:04] Tim Whybourne: So it's with great pleasure today that I introduce Susanne Bransgrove. Susanne, thank you very much for coming today. It's an absolute pleasure to have you in the office. 

[00:02:12] Susanne Bransgrove: Hi Tim. Great to be here. It's been a while since I've seen you. So good to see you again. 

[00:02:16] Tim Whybourne: Yeah, it has been a little while. Probably the best place to start is if you can give us a bit of background about yourself and what inspired you to specializing consulting to high net worth families and business owners and what inspired you to start Liquid Gold Consultants?

[00:02:32] Susanne Bransgrove: Not an easy one to answer really. Quite often when people. When we talk about what it is that I do, I would love to be able to tell a really succinct story that starts off with having a very deliberate perspective on working with high net worth families, but it wasn't quite that way. So I do come from a family business, which in my class is high net wealth.

[00:02:52] Susanne Bransgrove: And have therefore been part of the complexities and the conversations and the, the kind of topics you have to [00:03:00] cover within a family to be able to make decisions for the future that other families might not have to make. But started my career off in banking and finance and investment banking, ended up adding a double major in accounting to it.

[00:03:13] Susanne Bransgrove: Well, good measure, I think being from Germany, I did a certain Australian education here as well. So I'm, I'm originally from Germany. If anybody's wondering why I speak a bit funny every now and then. 

[00:03:22] Tim Whybourne: So it was at university in Germany or Australia? 

[00:03:25] Susanne Bransgrove: In Germany and here, so I did both. And about 16 years ago, I started off supporting family businesses, more so around governance, more on the business governance side, but really quickly developed A strong bond and strong insight into what is happening on the family side and how family dynamics and family systems and behaviors and patterns that have been built over a long period of time can create complexity and problems that can Either create conflict or skew the [00:04:00] decision making for the wealth that they might have and whether that is liquid wealth or whether that's business wealth and have been specializing in helping families unravel that now for the better part of 14 or 15 years.

[00:04:14] Tim Whybourne: What type of family typically would engage you and what sort of problems are they coming to try and solve? 

[00:04:22] Susanne Bransgrove: I'd like to say there are two kinds of families who come and seek me out. One, the one type are the families who understand that to be able to create a long term legacy and to encourage the children to take on a custodian role or to be responsible owners.

[00:04:41] Susanne Bransgrove: We'll take time and we'll take a lot of effort around educating in, in a different way than they have been doing in the past. And that's only a very small number of families I work with. The majority of families experience some kind of tension within the family where the decision making or who should make [00:05:00] decisions and what people might be entitled to or not be entitled to is starting to create just a little bit of friction and, and the, and the family patterns have been.

[00:05:09] Susanne Bransgrove: Causing some pain and I'm not talking about a fallout conflict or complete dysfunction, but just enough pain for people to realize that if they don't start talking about where, where the, where it's pressing, then eventually that's going to create increasing problems and then possible family fallout.

[00:05:32] Tim Whybourne: And are the types of families coming to you, are they typically Patriarch or Matriarch typically still in charge? Or is it second generation where it's been passed down to the kids? Or how many generations are you typically dealing with? 

[00:05:44] Susanne Bransgrove: Usually it's when there are two generations involved in some way, shape or form.

[00:05:48] Susanne Bransgrove: And that could either be the patriarch matriarch still be very much in charge of the business and struggling with this concept of transitioning or the, and the next generation is starting to push or is starting to ask more [00:06:00] question or is getting discontent when that's, again, in a. In a working business or understanding how the wealth works and the implications of what's going to happen tomorrow.

[00:06:09] Susanne Bransgrove: And in other cases is the next generation starting to take more and more control of, of the, of the assets. And there's still questions around how do they now collaborate when mom and dad eventually go. So they would generally have a reduced role, but still are there. If there are any arguments, let's say, or any confusion as to which way are we going to go?

[00:06:33] Susanne Bransgrove: There's always still the patriarch or the matriarch who can answer that question. And what they're starting to realize is they need to find a different mechanism because at some point that patriarch or matriarch is just not going to be available any longer to be able to, let's call it settle the score.

[00:06:47] Susanne Bransgrove: It's not really that serious, but, but to be able to provide guidance. 

[00:06:50] Tim Whybourne: When you are going into these situations, is there typically a lot of conflict and you're dealing with a lot of anger or frustration [00:07:00] or what problem are you specifically in there to solve?

[00:07:02] Susanne Bransgrove: It's really interesting. It's not generally anger.

[00:07:05] Susanne Bransgrove: It's I think anger sort of pops up sometimes in a, in a specific situation where people get a bit angry about something, but it's more so. Some frustration, but also pain or hurt about the situation and where the relationships are at and a sadness to, to sort of see the family that's not getting along.

[00:07:22] Susanne Bransgrove: And nobody really understands why that is the case because fundamentally they all love and trust each other, but there's just something not quite working and, and to that. So, I haven't seen a perfect family yet, and my family isn't perfect either. It's really normal for family to have, for families to have any kind of squabble or siblings to have sibling rivalry or, or to be disagreeing on a certain topic even if there isn't wealth or business.

[00:07:46] Susanne Bransgrove: The problem is when there's something that ties people together and often, so these assets do that. That it's very difficult for people to extract themselves from that, or to be able to find a complete separation from their family. So it's a [00:08:00] very unnatural environment for people to find themselves in where they're still bound to their siblings or bound to the family in a much stronger way.

[00:08:07] Susanne Bransgrove: And that can cause chemicals pain. And so that's generally more the emotion that I tend to come across; frustration and sadness, pain. 

[00:08:16] Tim Whybourne: What drew me to reach out in the first instance, or one of the first things that we originally spoke about was a family that had, there was a first generation of money and their biggest concern.

[00:08:26] Tim Whybourne: It was a lot of money, several hundred millions, and that can really change a family dynamic. So they've gone from having living a relatively modest life to starting a business where the business was a, not an overnight success or overnight success in 10 years or 15 years. And all of a sudden they've gone from having Normal life to having access to hundreds of millions of dollars.

[00:08:45] Tim Whybourne: And their biggest concern was not what they were going to do with the money. They had a pretty good idea and not ruining their kids. Cause that money can completely change the family dynamic. And one of the things that a lot of clients have spoken to me in the past about is how do you stop your kids having that.

[00:08:59] Tim Whybourne: [00:09:00] Desire to educate themselves to go and have a career or get out of bed in the morning. If I knew that I had access to hundreds of millions of dollars at 18, I don't know whether I would have done what I embarked on the journey that I embarked on. And I'm glad I did. Do you have those types of discussions with clients and how to not ruin your kids essentially?

[00:09:18] Susanne Bransgrove: Yeah, it's a, it's a common conversation and plays out in different kind of ways, but. As a sort of role rules that I didn't sort of say you have an absolute opportunity to educate your children to be responsible wealth holders, shareholders, business owners, whatever, whatever it is that the family controls.

[00:09:42] Susanne Bransgrove: And often with high net worth families, it's, it's a whole combination thereof. And when I hear. The kind of comment, my children aren't smart enough, good enough. My first question is, so whose fault is that? It's probably a bit of a hard question to ask, but so if you're not [00:10:00] spending time to create the context for you, for your children to understand the responsibility that comes with opportunity, there's always two sides to every coin and again, what it means to be responsible, then you do run the risk to live.

[00:10:16] Susanne Bransgrove: Their context up to themselves, and then you might end up with entitled children who see it as a, as something that they should have access to or something that's going to give them the opportunity not to, not to be responsible for their own lives. And I have seen that play out a few times where something is given without something in return.

[00:10:36] Susanne Bransgrove: I think there needs to be a value exchange. So if you're providing opportunities. If you're providing financial opportunities to your children, and what are they going to give you in return? They need to understand that there's always going to be a cost to everything. And what that looks like depends on the age of the next generation, but I tend to find the sooner you start them on that pathway to recognize that money doesn't come just, fall out of the sky [00:11:00] and that, and what it should mean for the family and what it means to the parents and what they hope it means for the, for their kids and how they're going to.

[00:11:08] Susanne Bransgrove: To deal with that, then really, all you're trying to do is create the right education conversation and context for them to make informed choices. And if you think about this, even in financial planning, as you always talked about informed choices. And so it's up to the parents to help create the frame of it.

[00:11:25] Susanne Bransgrove: Educates to provide informed choices, and then you still can't control from the grass. You can't control altogether, but you can set the foundation. 

[00:11:33] Tim Whybourne: We've been speaking about kind of 1st and 2nd generation, but in countries like Germany, there's 6th, 7th. You don't really get that in Australia, given how young the country is.

[00:11:42] Tim Whybourne: But there's a conversation change when you are talking about keeping a family together over more than 3 or 4 generations, where all of a sudden you've gone from having three or four stakeholders, mom, dad, and two kids to cousins. Have you had many cases of that? Probably not in Australia. 

[00:11:57] Susanne Bransgrove: It's actually interesting.

[00:11:59] Susanne Bransgrove: There are [00:12:00] not even that many cases in Europe really either, because if you think about how society has dealt with succession in the past, it's been the father to the oldest son concept. For, I don't know, for a very, very long period of time. And for really good reason, because if you think about what Europe, Europe used to look like, or even what Australia used to look like 150 years ago, you needed to have certainty that you, you didn't have really the luxury to start arguing about who should be getting what and trying to make it equal.

[00:12:28] Susanne Bransgrove: And about, I would like to sort of think maybe, I think even the current generation who's been, if they are the second generation and are. Older than 60. They've still gone through the very traditional way of dad owns the business or might have got it from his father. And, and you work for your father and the other children generally find other avenues and you get your inheritance when he dies.

[00:12:54] Susanne Bransgrove: Yeah. And what we now have is a society that's moved really fast over [00:13:00] the last 50 years, and we now have a quality and that creates a whole different issue where you now have families where it is really clear that the concept of just giving it to the eldest son is just not going to fly any longer if you want to put it like this.

[00:13:14] Susanne Bransgrove: And you might still have patriarch who've grown up in a very different society. So from an unconscious bias perspective, even the concept of treating, Different genders or different age groups. Equally becomes really complex, even in Germany. So some of the same issues that we're seeing here are also issues that European families go through because the patriarch, and I don't mean to pick on the patriarch, because again, it's a, it's a generational thinking isn't equipped to deal well with The kind of conversations you have to have, if you're trying to encourage your children to be equal decision makers or equal wealth holders and to be collaborative in their approach.

[00:13:52] Susanne Bransgrove: So patriarchal system is very different to collaborative system and, and really long enough, longstanding European families [00:14:00] have been going. Around that father to oldest son kind of content and now have to in the last 50 years have also had to start to solve the issues a bit differently. 

[00:14:08] Tim Whybourne: On that piece around equality, but we've got a lot of rural clients or farming clients and typically farmers might be very asset rich and their biggest assets, typically the farm or the land that they're on in the operation.

[00:14:21] Tim Whybourne: And then, but also they often have several sons or daughters and they all want to have different career paths and typically one or two that might have chosen the farm and the others might want to be off farm. So do you have much experience dealing with those types of clients and how you equitably split that asset up or the income streams up?

[00:14:38] Susanne Bransgrove: I do work a lot with farming families. And you're quite right. It's a much more complex issue because of the offset of often the main asset, which you either, if you're trying to be really fair to everybody, you probably have to sell it, but that's not what the family really wants. So it's a whole process to try to help them unravel.

[00:14:57] Susanne Bransgrove: And work out what it is that individual [00:15:00] family members, how they, what their journey has been and what actually ends up being fair and equitable from a structuring how you structure that that's really outside of my realm, but getting them to, to get to the point where they can agree on something can take a little bit longer.

[00:15:14] Susanne Bransgrove: Because again, there's only one. This is one chance to come up with something that's going to be able to provide the financial outcome in particular for the parents as well as the other sibling and provide at least one family still with an opportunity to be able to make a farm work, which often to your point, there's not often, this is not enough there to be able to look after three or four families.

[00:15:36] Susanne Bransgrove: That's quite complex. 

[00:15:37] Tim Whybourne: And in terms of I imagine a lot of your discussions are around legacy and what happens to the next generation. Do you find many families or is it Increasingly more families are wanting to talk about philanthropy and setting up an intergenerational structure to support charity.

[00:15:53] Tim Whybourne: Is that something that you're seeing more or less of or don't see it at all? 

[00:15:56] Susanne Bransgrove: There is certainly more awareness of of [00:16:00] the concept of philanthropy and using it as a foundation piece to talk about. You talked about before, the not to be entitled, but to, To have the, an obligation or responsibility to look after more than self.

[00:16:14] Susanne Bransgrove: So the purpose of the family tends to be larger than just self. And philanthropy is a wonderful opportunity to have those kinds of conversations. And one thing I tend to say is if you are having conversations around philanthropy, so giving to others, then it's just as important to also start. Addressing the conversations in your own family because what you don't want to have are children looking at, are we giving money away?

[00:16:39] Susanne Bransgrove: We're looking after others. What about me? So it needs to still balance out with the family as a collective understanding what its purpose is around looking after current and future generations, as well as community alongside that. 

[00:16:51] Tim Whybourne: And on this succession planning piece I understand you work collaboratively with lawyers to draft estate plans.

[00:16:58] Tim Whybourne: Is that right? 

[00:16:59] Susanne Bransgrove: Yeah, yeah. I [00:17:00] certainly don't do that. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:17:02] Tim Whybourne: So where do you fit in, in terms of assisting crafting that piece? And what sort of things are these clients thinking about? What are the big issues? When do they essentially need to engage someone like you? I imagine that's when family affairs are relatively complicated.

[00:17:18] Tim Whybourne: There's lots of families out there that their affairs aren't complicated. 

[00:17:22] Susanne Bransgrove: They're usually complicated. Because of, because of the human element, the family element, really what's interesting, of course, when you're looking at drafting legal documents for a family, from a lawyer's perspective, they are appointed by somebody.

[00:17:36] Susanne Bransgrove: In most cases, they're appointed by mom and dad to provide advice, to structure these states. And the complexity with that is that the, the lawyer cannot then engage with the next generation to understand or to To include them into any of these conversations, because that's not really who's providing, who's really, who's appointed the lawyer.

[00:17:56] Susanne Bransgrove: That's quite often what happens. And and also trying to [00:18:00] understand what is fair and equitable from every family member's perspective is probably different skillset. So my role tends to be where mom and dad are not entirely certain. Whilst on paper, it's easy to look at numbers or look at what might be fair, understanding what the next generation really think is fair and, and often preempting the fact that there might be some conflict in, if there is no conversation had, my role really is to look at the conversation and the framework for the family to talk together about something that's going to be important for all of them, work out the foundation for those decisions and.

[00:18:36] Susanne Bransgrove: And what the intention is, and then allow mom and dad to work with the lawyer to put that into place, including their own thoughts, but also maybe not maybe, but more certainty that what they're going to put in place is going to be okay for the next generation. I think in many cases, and I'm sure this too, is the concern that whatever is being put in place is going to be undone by the next generation in the absence of understanding why it's done.

[00:18:59] Susanne Bransgrove: [00:19:00] And, and to Put a bit of a personal story behind that from our own family. I have one half sister when I was in Germany last time, I've been trying to encourage him to have more conversations with us. So we understood better what it is that he's planning and we are better equipped for it. And the conversation was, was very much about, okay, so what I've decided to do is all these assets are sitting within the family, the business and the trust, and that goes to you and your sister and all my personal wealth.

[00:19:28] Susanne Bransgrove: I've decided to give to my new wife and I'm giving this to your sister and this to your nephew. And I had to sort of take a deep breath because somehow my name wasn't mentioned in that. And it's. When, and I'm reasonably pragmatic, I'd like to think because I deal with this for a living all the time, but it's still different if it's your own family.

[00:19:50] Susanne Bransgrove: And I must admit, I was like, I was quite hurt at that point in time because I didn't understand it. But when we did have a conversation around it and he explained his reasoning for it, it [00:20:00] made perfect sense to me. And the only thing I could say to him is that I'm so glad that we, We're able to talk about this because I think if he had died and I was confronted with that, then that would have been the only thing that would have been on an emotional level, weight on me, regardless of everything else from a wealth perspective.

[00:20:16] Susanne Bransgrove: And I think you can sort of say it's quite often. The outcome is one thing, but it is how it impacts on people and how it impacts on their relationships. And I think that's one thing I know from. Any mother or father out there, the last thing they want when they've been working so hard, they've been trying to build a legacy.

[00:20:33] Susanne Bransgrove: They want to look after their children and grandchildren and generations to come is that somewhere in there, there was just a conversation that wasn't had and it ends up with. The next generation having a 

[00:20:45] Tim Whybourne: fallout. 

[00:20:45] Tim Whybourne: That's really interesting. I've actually never, never thought about that, but I have seen it firsthand.

[00:20:50] Tim Whybourne: Once you're gone, you're gone. You don't get a chance to explain yourself and that will forever be a mystery which is a shame. Obviously only get one shot at this life and to [00:21:00] have something unexplained. Like that would be very hurtful, I imagine but so many people don't have the discussion. I'm sure 90 percent of people would not have the discussion. 

[00:21:10] Susanne Bransgrove: Because they're uncomfortable.

[00:21:12] Susanne Bransgrove: Consider, consider to be uncomfortable, but they actually, I tend to find when you connect family, because in most cases there's positive intending, right? So there's something positive. Parents are trying to. So when they're leaving something to their children, and so then if they're, if there's a problem where they might be looking at excluding somebody, that in itself is probably something that might need to be addressed because that's punishing people is generally not a, not a great idea, but importantly, if you have positive intention and you're trying to do something good for your kids, why not?

[00:21:47] Susanne Bransgrove: Why sort of do this concept? And I hear this often, Oh, I'm just gonna, they're just going to find out when I'm dead and then they can deal with that. And what I actually hear in that is. I just don't know how to deal with it. So I'm just pretending I'm tough, but I'm [00:22:00] actually just, I just don't, I just don't want to hurt anybody.

[00:22:02] Susanne Bransgrove: So I'd rather, or run the risk of saying something wrong. So I'm just going to remove myself from this problem, but the problem, I suppose, if you can say that there might be a problem, the problem doesn't just go away. Yeah. You have to give the opportunity to address it. And, and admittedly, that might seem high risk, but in all the years that I've been working with families, if approached carefully and respectfully and, and being mindful of individuals, of the individuals in it and carefully, carefully.

[00:22:30] Susanne Bransgrove: Crafting conversations with, with, with a positive intention behind it and making sure that you mindful of where some of the pain points lie. Whenever you allow a family to remove some of these assumptions or unspoken expectations and create clarity, it re, it removes tension and allows to rebuild connection where it's been lost.

[00:22:52] Susanne Bransgrove: That's my experience. 

[00:22:54] Tim Whybourne: Quite powerful. Everyone should really be having that discussion, but nearly nobody does. We see a lot that [00:23:00] certainly in our client base. They're coming to us because they have excess funds to, to invest in the typically relatively wealthy. Sometimes when they pass, we'll notice that the kids actually had no idea how much money the parents had.

[00:23:12] Tim Whybourne: Dad or mom might've lived a relatively frugal life, but they're sitting on kind of 10 or 20 million, which the kids all of a sudden inherit and have no idea what to do with. And sometimes that is a great outcome. And sometimes it. Results in those siblings fighting and souring their relationship instead of bettering it.

[00:23:33] Tim Whybourne: So we certainly see the value of what you're proposing first hand. 

[00:23:37] Susanne Bransgrove: I mean, I'm an ambassador for it, but then I should be, right? 

[00:23:41] Tim Whybourne: When you engage clients to work with them, I imagine it's not just a three hour session and you're done. It takes time to Work out what everyone wants and thinks and their beliefs.

[00:23:52] Tim Whybourne: What is the typical engagement and just talk about a bit about the client experience. I think in our first discussion, we spoke about kind of the family [00:24:00] charter and what that means. Can you talk about how that works? 

[00:24:03] Susanne Bransgrove: The family charter is a really fascinating document and certainly is an important part of the process, by the way, but I get to that in a second.

[00:24:11] Susanne Bransgrove: When you start working with the family, and I talked about before being respectful and careful with with the individuals and the collective, I tend to say a family is a, is a very complex system with very fragile individuals in it. And again, when they're tied closely together because of assets that everybody feels that they need to have some kind of clarity or control over, it becomes increasingly complex.

[00:24:34] Susanne Bransgrove: So the first part really is carefully understanding What this family, what the family system really looks like and how communication currently works, how open they can be with each other, whether, and if there is conflict, what that looks like, and then to start helping them build communication that is going to be foundational for them to make good decisions on.

[00:24:58] Susanne Bransgrove: The charter is often used as a [00:25:00] tool to, to govern and often, and in some cases, It's almost taken off the shelf. My view on it on the childhood is very much a, an important document that needs to be built in conversation to create this clarity and disability for family to understand how everybody thinks it's really creating common language, a common understanding of what it is that you're going to be doing and how you're going to be doing it.

[00:25:23] Susanne Bransgrove: So I tend to find in a family that is reasonably well connected, it's a three to six month process to give everybody enough air time and feel comfortable and work on some of, Self and relationships and, and communication and decision making when there is friction, it probably takes six to 12 months to sort of.

[00:25:44] Susanne Bransgrove: In a gentle pace to be able to set the foundation for them to move from. And one thing I tend to sort of say to families is in particular, if there is a bit of conflict or friction, often this friction has been created over many, many, many, many years. So we don't have a magic wand here. So it's a, it [00:26:00] takes a bit of time to, to put that right.

[00:26:02] Susanne Bransgrove: Let's put it that way or give people the opportunity to address things when the fabric is strong enough to do that. So you just need to give, you need to have a bit of patience. But 6 to 12 months at the most, and even after the first few sessions, after a couple of months, we're seeing improvement in how the family communicates about, about anything really.

[00:26:19] Tim Whybourne: Like with anything, communication is always key and being as open and transparent as you can. On that point, we see a few of our wealthier clients have purpose meetings. Sometimes it's offsite. Sometimes they'll go somewhere. Different every year to discuss matters like succession planning or giving or or what the family's up to just to provide that focal point.

[00:26:42] Tim Whybourne: So you're not just fluffing around, I guess. Is that something that you advocate for? 

[00:26:45] Susanne Bransgrove: Absolutely. I think it's, it's kind of, it's the same with anything you can have, you can address anything. Absolutely. If it's agreed on and it's, if you've made time for it and everybody knows what to expect. So if everybody knows that they're going to go somewhere to talk about whether it's [00:27:00] succession or philanthropy or any other matter, that's going to be important to the family.

[00:27:04] Susanne Bransgrove: And they had time to think about it. And that's exactly the way to do it. Last thing you want to do is ambush people. Because you want to talk about something that's important to you. That's usually where the arguments start, by the way. 

[00:27:16] Tim Whybourne: Can you share any strategies or techniques you've found particularly effective in addressing dynamics in terms of succession planning or like what types of do you sit down one one on one with each family member and do you have an agenda that you go through with them or is it very dynamic and you're just Trying to tease it out of them and each person's different.

[00:27:36] Susanne Bransgrove: Suddenly every family is different. And so as a starting opponent, as a rule, whenever you bring a group of people together, it's really important in particular family. It's important to understand. Where, what's been happening and where people are at and where some of the pressure points for them are, or where they're feeling, probably grief is a good way of putting it.

[00:27:58] Susanne Bransgrove: So the, the concept [00:28:00] always will be with any family I start off with is really to understand each individual and And have a measure of what I call the voice of the family. So there is a process that we've created that has a deep dive survey followed by a one on one that is lived experience, if you want to put it that way, of a family member within the family to be able to, you know, almost in the first session to show them what it is that they're thinking as a collective and where their strength are, that they're building, they can build on and where also some of the hurdles are for them and some of the conversations that have to be had.

[00:28:36] Susanne Bransgrove: And the reality is not nobody's going to be surprised at that point in time. It has been called out. It's been named. And if you understand some of the psychology frameworks when naming and claiming it allows them to let go of some of the things that have built up to that and understanding that there's going to be a pathway forward.

[00:28:52] Susanne Bransgrove: And so that is sort of the first step for people to. To see themselves for who they are, and I was sort of saying that the good, the bad, and the ugly, we're all [00:29:00] imperfect family. As I said, there's no perfect family, but to give them permission to talk about what it is that they see that's not working to somebody who's independent and is not necessarily family at that point, allows that stepping stone for them to basically black on white, almost to see, okay, this is what's actually going on for us.

[00:29:17] Tim Whybourne: So what type of family is engaging you? Because as you said, no family is perfect, but most families are perfect. Probably think that close. So is there usually a big obvious problem that you've been engaged in the first instance that needs to be addressed? And then you probably uncover all these other things that you, they're not talking about also, or, or have they just been referred to by their accountant?

[00:29:37] Tim Whybourne: Cause they've got a hundred million dollars and you should probably talk to Susan.

[00:29:43] Susanne Bransgrove: Interestingly enough I mean, I would love to see that, but again, it's, it's about families recognizing that something can be improved on as well. The best way to put that. And what tends to happen is that they, that they keep coming up against the same sort of problem point. [00:30:00] And it doesn't necessarily have to be an argument, but there's just something that's stopping them over and over again, from making the kind of progress that they would like to make as a family.

[00:30:08] Susanne Bransgrove: Even if it is, if you talk about succession, how many times do you hear an advisor say, I've got this family and we've been working on their, their, their Whether it's a shareholder agreement or the estate planning, and we just, we just can't get them to commit to it. And I generally tend to say people don't commit to something it's because for them, there's just something that's not quite right.

[00:30:28] Susanne Bransgrove: And I sometimes sort of say, when we objectively talk about succession and the necessity to put pen to paper, to cement these decisions that are really critical for this family, it's almost as if you like a, if there's anything that's not, that is, there's doubt around how this is going to land. With the family or any kind of problem like that then it means there's something stuck.

[00:30:52] Susanne Bransgrove: So my job is to come in and understand what that is and unstick it and create the conversations for the family to move forward. So that's [00:31:00] usually when the pain point is big enough or the problem point just keeps reoccurring. That's if people know what I, what it is that I do, they tend to then refer that to me because I can unstick these kinds of things and move it forward positively.

[00:31:13] Tim Whybourne: And just back on the kids seems to be what is a focal point for most of our clients, and that tends to be their biggest concern. What's going to happen to the kids? I guess that's what intergenerational wealth transfer is all about. But in the instance of the family we referenced, it's just come into money and they're worried What's going to happen to their kids.

[00:31:33] Tim Whybourne: Do you sit down with the kids as well? Let's, let's say they're 16 or 18. Do you have discussion with the kids around what they want or what they think? Or is there any set formula as to how to, to keep them motivated? Or is it again, probably every family is different, but how do you deal with that?

[00:31:49] Susanne Bransgrove: You mentioned collaboration before. So quite often, I mean, if they're, if they're reasonably young, asking them, what, what, what it is that they want, it's probably going to be a bit. Bit early, but [00:32:00] what's critical is to tie the advisors around them into the kind of conversations that can be used to educate them a little bit more broadly and in a, in an age appropriate manner where they get to start learning about whether it's share portfolios or whether it's about business structures or whether it's about their own, if they have a trading business about the business in itself.

[00:32:17] Susanne Bransgrove: So structuring regular get togethers, we're talking about. Finance, investments, decision making, or business, or even personal growth becomes really normal. It's really a great starting point without overburdening young people, but actually keeping them really engaged and interested in giving them skills that they're going to need no matter where they end up or what they're going to be doing.

[00:32:42] Tim Whybourne: It's a it's a huge web, I guess, the discussion that you, you unlock. So you mentioned you work with wealth advisors like myself and probably lawyers and accountants. Does that come into your, your discussions on the tax planning side of things? Do you kind of sit there during chair meetings as an example [00:33:00] where you get all the other advisors in the room or is refer that out?

[00:33:03] Susanne Bransgrove: It depends on how it's set up. In most cases, if you looked at the framework of it, I'm not going to use the word governance now, it's boring as it is, but what it is you do in the family office side is Is generally you would govern that what happens on the family and educational side is, is that would generally be what I would be governing.

[00:33:21] Susanne Bransgrove: So they're two different parts that need to be connected very well. And in, in some cases I might be facilitating family office advisory board. Depending on the family and just facilitate how that works, but that's, but that's very, very rare tend to find that those who do the tax and do the financial advising and do the legal work are best place to facilitate the conversations.

[00:33:46] Susanne Bransgrove: And that's part of the, the collective when it comes to the family well being and decision making, Probably from a conceptual perspective or from a, how they make decisions. That's really more, more my so I think it's really [00:34:00] important to recognize that we don't have to all meddle in everything.

[00:34:02] Susanne Bransgrove: I think it's quite to work together and, and hold a specific part so that the family also knows what it is that they need to focus on. So whoever they're with is the kind of conversation they're going to be having. 

[00:34:14] Tim Whybourne: To tie it all together. Are you able to provide a an example of a success story of a family that you've worked with that you came in and it was a, it was a bit of a mess and you left and and things were looking a lot better.

[00:34:26] Susanne Bransgrove: I'll refer to one that we've been working on a little while ago, because it's interesting to see the progress. So when we were first approached this is a wealthy family with the trading business with four children, all working in the business within itself is, so you have every family member in that business.

[00:34:44] Susanne Bransgrove: And it's interesting. I refer to them as children when they're the next generation. Sometimes the children are older than I am, but they're still the children, right? And What we had is the family. Almost overrunning every function. So [00:35:00] they're all family members in the business. And we had friction between the siblings.

[00:35:04] Susanne Bransgrove: So a lot of competitive behavior within the siblings and also significant friction between father and oldest son. And the oldest son was very much classed as the heir parent. So when we first got engaged, they couldn't even be in a room together. So I was. Waiting for the sun to levitate off the chair at times because there, there was just so much misunderstanding and so much misdirected energy.

[00:35:28] Susanne Bransgrove: One thing that I find fascinating, this is something I observed with every family where there are some problems. The moment I get involved in that just pure. Notion of having somebody is going to listen to you and is going to, and there's a recognition that there's a problem and that there is a commitment to be doing something already reduces the tension.

[00:35:45] Susanne Bransgrove: I haven't actually done anything yet. So that in itself is quite interesting. I mentioned before this concept of deep diving into. What I call technical governance, what have you actually currently got? So you either have documents to guide succession or wealth decisions [00:36:00] or, or family governance, or you don't have them, you either have a process or you don't.

[00:36:04] Susanne Bransgrove: And that's really easy to get somebody to go through that and understand how they really score on technical governance front. But I mentioned before this deep dive into allowing everybody in the family to have a first go at articulating how they experience being part of the family. And the decision making and how the family connection works.

[00:36:23] Susanne Bransgrove: So we're looking for cohesion, connection, communication, those kinds of, those kinds of elements. And we're really tricky with that because we're giving them multicast and they can't sit in the middle and then they have to back it up. And what came out of that was a really poor score on the family voice or the family connection.

[00:36:40] Susanne Bransgrove: I think we scored 11 out of a hundred and that made it really clear that there was a lot going on. We fast forward six months down the track and we've moved them up to close to 50 percent with a critical improvement being that they recognized and we were able to showcase them, their behavior as a collective when they were actually doing it and showing them pathways, [00:37:00] how to improve that to get them to be able to be in the room and play.

[00:37:04] Susanne Bransgrove: Collaborate. And we repaired the relationship between father and sons and actually started hugging again. And now in business or even with wealth, they are referring to each other. And at that point in time, we stepped away because you have to give people some space when they've just had a huge growth curve, but make sure that their governance on the business and wealth site was being looked at by the advisors.

[00:37:27] Susanne Bransgrove: And we're now revisiting the next phase of family communication cohesion. And it's fascinating when we did the follow up survey what they've learned and their ability to articulate what it is that they feel they need as a family to step forward. So the self awareness is through the roof. I'm not quite sure if that's sort of, there's so much in it.

[00:37:47] Susanne Bransgrove: I could just. Continue giving you the examples, and I think nobody wants to really hear the minute detail, but whilst every journey with every family is different, meaning that whilst there's a common starting [00:38:00] point to at least understand what it is that we need to address, how it's being addressed will vary.

[00:38:05] Susanne Bransgrove: The order in, in, in how we work with people depends on their own, their own Um, their fabric and their, their patterns and their behaviors, but every single family moves through a positive progress. I have not yet worked with the family where there hasn't been improvement. Although in some families you have to be very honest if you're dealing with If there's personality disorders or significant mental health or substance abuse issues, which does happen, that is a much broader family issue to address that is beyond my capability apart from pointing it out.

[00:38:41] Susanne Bransgrove: But even understanding that allows families to make better decisions for the collective. You can't ever step away, there are family issues in the end, so you still need to resolve them as a collective. 

[00:38:50] Tim Whybourne: It must be extremely rewarding to, to go into a I don't want to call it a mess, but a situation, family dynamic that's not ideal, and then come out the other end six months [00:39:00] later and, They're hugging and that's must be very rewarding.

[00:39:03] Susanne Bransgrove: It really is. I love my work, by the way. But one of the reasons why we've implemented these, really, these assessment items, let's call it that, is it is one thing for me to see and to know and to understand and, and get a feel for how family Relationships have improved and their ability to make good decisions together has improved, but how do you sometimes prove that?

[00:39:26] Susanne Bransgrove: And where's the document for that one? And so, and it's not about proving it's an accountability piece. If I can't at least hand on heart in a measurable way, know that I've had a positive impact on a family and how they, how they move forward, then You know, is it all in my mind? So it's really been created a to provide accountability, but B to also provide them with a, with a roadmap, how to take it from here or where are we going to be going from here?

[00:39:53] Susanne Bransgrove: So to be able to change a collective, you have to help the family to see where they've come from, how they [00:40:00] ended up here, what today actually looks like and the way you're taking them. And so six months down the track, you have to still do the same thing. You have to take them back to, Six months previously and show them what the journey is.

[00:40:10] Susanne Bransgrove: So, so that's, that's really great fun. I would like to say, but it's not easy, but it's really enjoyable. 

[00:40:15] Tim Whybourne: When you reference we you've obviously got a team sitting behind you. Can you just, just talk quickly about those roles that help facilitate your, your jobs and the outcome? 

[00:40:24] Susanne Bransgrove: Yeah. So, my view of the family universe is that they are very distinct Parts to the family group.

[00:40:33] Susanne Bransgrove: I mentioned this before from a, there's the, the decision making on, on the assets, whether that's a business or wealth, then there's the family group as a collective. And then there's the individuals within that. So in systems theory, when you look at family, Families, this is the family system and you have to work with the collective.

[00:40:54] Susanne Bransgrove: That's my role. It's my role to understand how the system works, how the collective works, [00:41:00] how they make decisions, how they communicate and how you can improve that and how you can link that correctly to their family office or to their. The operating business, but to be able to continue or to be able to do that, well, you have to look after the individuals within that.

[00:41:14] Susanne Bransgrove: And I work very closely with lady called Rebecca Niebuhr, who's absolutely spectacular. She is an organizational psychologist, but with a really, really strong coaching mentoring band. And so once the collective understands that it's important to enable the individuals. She works with all the individuals in the family to help them articulate their own values, their own vision, their own goals, and, and also understand where they're sabotaging self and the system to then contribute to the family in a much better way.

[00:41:45] Susanne Bransgrove: So it's really impossible to improve a system if you're not working with the individuals. And it's pointless to just work with the individuals if you're not improving the system. So we're looking at it. And then when I say we, the rest really are the advisors who we're collaborating with who've referred it to us or who are part of [00:42:00] the broader family group.

[00:42:01] Tim Whybourne: Are there any final advice or insight you'd like to share with any potential families out there that might be thinking about maybe they might need a service like yours? 

[00:42:09] Susanne Bransgrove: As I said before, every family is really different. And if you, so for any family who's listening or any advisors who are listening, I would sort of say, if any family.

[00:42:20] Susanne Bransgrove: Articulates things such as I'm not sure about how to guide the next generation, how to make sure they are. Okay. I'm not sure how to include them, involve them, their, their issues, just at least give me a call. Let's have a chat. Because it's not as daunting as you think it is, but it's a lot more rewarding.

[00:42:41] Susanne Bransgrove: Probably. So at least have a conversation. And sometimes if I can just point you in a different direction or provide some insights or some, some reference points or some parallels to, to something that I've seen or experienced, and I'm more than happy to always do that, but at least maybe try to have a conversation.

[00:42:56] Tim Whybourne: Yeah, no, I completely agree. Cause as we kind of highlighted, [00:43:00] not many people do have. The discussion to even picking up the phone and having a five minute chats better than wondering, should I? 

[00:43:06] Susanne Bransgrove: Yeah. One thing is that that is, and the reason why I say that is the amount of times when I tell people what it is that I do is say to me, I wish I would have known that you exist before we ended up, the family fell apart or my brother got estranged or we ended up selling the business or my, my parents did this.

[00:43:23] Susanne Bransgrove: So, and it's really interesting and everything can really be resolved. With good communication, but it, and I do understand that as I said to you, my family's not perfect either. And I sometimes also find it difficult to have the conversations that I have to have with my own family as I said, I think the first time I talked to my dad about talking about succession would have been about 10 years ago.

[00:43:44] Susanne Bransgrove: I've already been working with other families for about five years. At that point in time, it was the most awkward conversation I've ever had. It was really embarrassing. It's really difficult to try to resolve problems in your own family. And, but as I said before, the problems are not going to go away.

[00:43:57] Susanne Bransgrove: By not talking about them. [00:44:00] They're also not gonna go away if the family keeps having the same conversations about it. 'cause if it hasn't worked the first time, it's not gonna work the second time, third time, fourth time or or hundred 50th time. So see if you can get some assistance with that. And then I guess the only thing I sometimes say is just understand what the strength of your various advisors are and whether you want to pull them into family issues when they might not be, might not be equipped for that.

[00:44:26] Tim Whybourne: I agree. You can. You can guarantee a negative outcome if you don't do anything about it, but if you do something about it, you've got half a shot. So no, I completely agree. But no, thank you very much for your time today. It was it was enlightening and I'm sure there's a need among our own client base for someone like yourself.

[00:44:41] Tim Whybourne: So I'm glad that we could share your story today. 

[00:44:43] Tim Whybourne: So thank you. 

[00:44:43] Susanne Bransgrove: Really appreciate being allowed to share it. It's always fun, thanks.

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