Major General (Retd) Fergus (Gus) McLachlan AO

Gus McLachlan completed his 37-year career with the Australian Army in 2019, retiring as a Major General.Gus McLachlan has been responsible for generating Australian Defence capability in the land domain, cyber space, electronic warfare and command and control systems. He completed two years as Head of Army Modernisation, during which time he worked closely with industry to commence a major recapitalisation of Army equipment and to network the systems of the Army.Gus McLachlan’s military career concluded after he led Land Forces Command where he was responsible for 35,000 women and men of the Army.He continued his leadership career in the commercial sector with Boral, Australia’s largest construction materials company, where he led Business Performance and Improvement during a major transformation activity.

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Gus McLachlan is currently a Senior Adviser at Bondi Partners, a unique advisory firm offering strategic counsel to businesses in Australia and the United States. He is a Director and Strategic Adviser to Australian and US defence, cyber and space technology companies. He has been an Adjunct Professor at Monash University and now advises The University of Sydney on national security research, and he chairs the Advisory Board for the Cyber and AI Futures Institute at Charles Sturt University. Gus is also Director of the not-for-profit Williams Foundation, a defence air and space “Think Tank”.

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Gus was made an Officer in the Order or Australia (AO) for his contribution to Army Modernisation and awarded the United States Legion of Merit by Secretary James Mattis for his service in the international coalition force in Afghanistan.Gus lives in Sydney with his wife Maree and they have two adult sons.

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[00:00:00] Ryan Loehr: Welcome to the exchange podcast by EWL. As advisors to some of the most successful families in the country, Craig Emmanuel, Tim Whybourne and I, Ryan Loehr, draw upon some of the best minds in the country. We believe that by exchanging ideas, we can deliver better advice and better outcomes for the families we worked for.

[00:00:32] Ryan Loehr: Now, we're inviting you on this journey. In this podcast, we interview some of the country's best investment managers, business advisors, bankers, and founders to share their valuable insights. And our hope is that with better information comes better decisions, helping you to achieve more financially.

[00:00:53] Tim Whybourne: Today we have the great honor of welcoming Gus McLachlin AO to the podcast. Gus left the army in 2018 [00:01:00] after a stellar 37 year career, having achieved the right rank of major general during that time, his roles included head of modernization and strategic planning, deputy chief of staff for plans at the HQ ISAF joint command and in Afghanistan and chief of staff for the office of the chief of the defense force.

[00:01:18] Tim Whybourne: He retired as Commander Forces Command, leading 35, 000 men and women off the ground forces. He is an experienced leader with a demonstrated history of strategic planning, cultural and organisational change. His leadership roles include some of the largest and most complex teams in the public and private sectors in Australia.

[00:01:35] Tim Whybourne: He is a leader respected for his curiosity and innovation, having led army investigation into cyber, robotics, and data analytic tools, and more recently during a successful transition to the commercial and university sectors. Gus McLachlin is a graduate of the advanced management program at the Harvard Business School and Kranlana Center for Ethical Leadership.

[00:01:55] Tim Whybourne: So again, it is with great pleasure, I welcome Gus to the podcast. Welcome Gus. 

[00:01:59] Fergus McLachlan: Hi Tim, [00:02:00] thanks for having me. 

[00:02:01] Tim Whybourne: I have so many questions for you, given your, your background, and I think everyone will find really interesting, but probably the best place to start is a little bit about your background and how you ultimately became the Major General in the Army.

[00:02:13] Tim Whybourne: If we can start there. 

[00:02:14] Fergus McLachlan: There's a lot of preconceived ideas about what senior military folk life might be like, whether it's born with a silver spoon or, or, or something, not, not necessarily true. I was raised by a single mum down in, down in Melbourne. She was a teacher and was passionately a believer in education.

[00:02:29] Fergus McLachlan: My sister, who's sort of my my hero. Is now head of oncology at St. Vincent's Hospital in Melbourne. And so she was ahead of me in the queue to go to university. So I knew mum was going to have trouble sort of, sustaining the lifestyle of the two of us in, in university that we thought we were probably attracted to.

[00:02:46] Fergus McLachlan: So I had this idea that I'd go off and join the army for a few years and, and ease the pressure and then sort of come back to the real world. Three or four years later mum insisted that if I went, that was fine. But I, I was to get a university degree in the process. And so I landed [00:03:00] at, at what's known as the Royal Military College Duntroon, which in those days was linked to the University of New South Wales and, and, got a degree.

[00:03:08] Fergus McLachlan: Thinking I'd do a few years and then, re enter the real world as it was. But what I found was an organization that I absolutely loved. I loved the people Australian soldiers have a kind of a reputation for being cheeky and challenging and demanding to lead, but when you lead them well, they are some of the best soldiers in the world.

[00:03:28] Fergus McLachlan: And that's what I encountered. Loved every minute of it. And so, decided that while they thought I was all right, I might stick around now the world was pretty different back then, Tim, we were we would, we'd sort of come out of Vietnam 10, 10 years or so before I joined we watched the Falklands war, kind of on the television and realized that what, what, what I joined might be a bit real, but it still seemed a long way away and it wasn't until the attacks in New York on September 11.

[00:03:55] Fergus McLachlan: That we, we realized that the world had changed, globally, the, issues [00:04:00] were, were, were, were significantly different. And of course, for us in the military profession, the world had changed. And so the back half of my career was in that post 9 11 world where we, we, I deployed to as a peacekeeper in the Middle East Interesting now, of course, in the light of the events in in Gaza and in the north of Israel, I was a peacekeeper in the north of Israel in southern Lebanon, but after 9 11, it was Iraq and Afghanistan and all the implications of those things that went with it.

[00:04:27] Fergus McLachlan: So, that and that sadly was pointing to a more turbulent. world that we face. So, the back end of my career became a lot more challenging and, and the issues ongoing since my departure. 

[00:04:40] Tim Whybourne: 37 years is a long time. So you started at the bottom and climbed your way up. How does one find their way up to, to major general?

[00:04:48] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, I mean, I, I guess I was lucky because my mom, insisted that I get a degree that meant I entered as a, as a lieutenant, which, which is the lowest level officer rank. But it did [00:05:00] allow me to kind of enjoy those kind of early leadership experience. And just like your, your business listeners, the, those formulative.

[00:05:08] Fergus McLachlan: I was a tank. Guy just, I like machines. I like the speed that things operated when you were, when you were mounted rather than than walking. And so that gave me early insights into technology as well. So, tanks are quite advanced machines have, they have laser range finders and atmospheric sensors and ballistic computers and so on.

[00:05:29] Fergus McLachlan: So I, I developed quite early. An interest in innovation and, and, and what was potentially coming, I was very lucky to, to be sent over on exchange to the Marine Corps to a thing they called the, the Marine Corps war fighting laboratory exotic term, but, but it was a, it was a really an innovation center skunkworks, if you like for advanced technology.

[00:05:50] Fergus McLachlan: So we were looking. This is back in the, in the late nineties. We're already looking at drones and surveillance sensors and digital command and control systems. [00:06:00] So I was able to, to enjoy this kind of exposure to technology and innovation while still leading these amazing Australian soldiers.

[00:06:10] Fergus McLachlan: And I guess I was fortunate that that combination of skills like in any business, was, was recognized by some, some really inspirational leaders that I had who thought I was worth developing. And my leadership mantra is to look back and think, I, I was, I was developed and mentored.

[00:06:26] Fergus McLachlan: I didn't really understand it at the time by some terrific. Leaders people like Senator Jim Mullen, who recently passed away. Jim was one of my early bosses. And even then he was, he was a towering figure of energy and innovation and enthusiasm. So my, my mantra then became, pay that forward.

[00:06:42] Fergus McLachlan: As I got more senior, was I, was I developing the next generation to come through? Because unlike most businesses, defense largely recruits from its own, inside its own borders, if you like. So if you don't develop your successes, you're, you're really leaving. Big hole. So I was lucky that some people did that for me and [00:07:00] I, and I hope I paid that forward.

[00:07:02] Tim Whybourne: Is there a lot of curriculum to develop yourself into leadership positions or is it learn on the job? What was the best tool to develop your skills? 

[00:07:11] Fergus McLachlan: Combination of both a lot of formal leadership training, perhaps more than most other organizations and partly because most other organizations can't afford to just have you off the tools for lengthy periods of time.

[00:07:22] Fergus McLachlan: But but in the military, I spent at the at the early, stage, I spent a year at what's called the command and staff college learning, leadership, strategy making planning. Governance, a whole range of things for a full year, which came as a part of a master's program.

[00:07:37] Fergus McLachlan: You then go back in at the more senior level. You mentioned that I was I'm a graduate of the Harvard advanced management program. That was defense sponsored, putting us over and immersing us amongst business leaders. So that we were aware of emerging best practice, that kind of thing.

[00:07:52] Fergus McLachlan: So lots of formal development, but a lot of it is in the, in the field on the tools. And I, I remember, my first. command was [00:08:00] 16 odd soldiers, a sergeant who'd been in the army 20 years. And I'm thinking, how can I possibly tell this amazing Australian sergeant, what, what to do.

[00:08:08] Fergus McLachlan: But he he understood that his role was to develop me so that when I became more senior, I had the grounding to, to lead. And, it's a funny story, but people sort of wonder, when do you feel like you're You knew you might have the leadership thing going. Okay. When you're in a, in a tank, there's four of you.

[00:08:25] Fergus McLachlan: And often the, the young lieutenants called away for planning sessions late into the night to work out the activities for the next day. And I came back to my tank stumbling through the dark at about midnight. And one of the guys had stayed awake, handed me a hot can of stew, just muck put together, but heated up, had my sleeping bag rolled out and and, in a hot cup of tea and I thought, Hey, they, they, they must think I'm okay.

[00:08:50] Fergus McLachlan: I mean, he could have just dumped the dump my pack on the roof and gone to bed. And it was those little, little sort of feedback loops that the military is very good at. If you're going okay, they start awake [00:09:00] and they. They make sure you're okay. And if you're not, there's a, there's a can of cold cold meat and a can opener, so, there's lots of that sort of development and feedback as you go forward.

[00:09:09] Tim Whybourne: Was it a big difference between leading a small tank of 4 people versus leading 35, 000 people? 

[00:09:16] Fergus McLachlan: I do think your leadership has to change and evolve. I think you learn about yourself first. So I think you've got to be able to lead yourself. You've got to know what your values and purpose and standards are.

[00:09:25] Fergus McLachlan: And you, you pick up that when you're young and that stays with you, but you can communicate directly to, my first command was 16. I think my next one was about a hundred. You can still communicate pretty directly to a hundred. You can line them up in a, in a, a bit of a half circle around you and you can, you can tell them what's going on.

[00:09:42] Fergus McLachlan: You can tell them, what they need to improve, but once it gets much bigger than that, you have to lead through through a team. And so being able to form a leadership team make sure that they are valued and have an opinion make sure that they are being developed and taught. And then by the time you get up to really big [00:10:00] organizations, when I was a land forces commander, 35, 000 people were spread from the Torres Strait to Tasmania.

[00:10:05] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah. East and west skills as diverse as a plumbing school in Aubrey Wodonga through to advanced helicopter squadron in Holdsworth to support special operations. So you, your ability to kind of get around and give each of those organizations the leadership they need, which is really about making sure they've got the resources.

[00:10:24] Fergus McLachlan: that they are applying the standards of behavior and treating each other appropriately. But it's very different. I had this I came to the understanding that they might physically see me in person once or twice a year. So what that meant is when I was there, I had to be really present.

[00:10:39] Fergus McLachlan: I had to understand that my message had to be positive. I had to inspire them and, and all the other material that I might push out in written form or in in, on, in online forums had to, had to be supported by that one experience they had of me face to face. So, yeah, you do, you do have to evolve and learn, but also there's modern, learn, learn to use modern leadership tools.

[00:10:59] Fergus McLachlan: We, we did [00:11:00] start things like podcasts or online webinars use of social media. I think leaders have to adapt. To, to use the tools that are available. I'll just give you one simple story. We, I had a bunch of army reserve units that were also under my command. And so they often are coming together on, on Friday nights or on the weekends.

[00:11:19] Fergus McLachlan: And I had a, a brigade headquarters in Melbourne that was preparing for the bushfire season. And our army reserve often do the national response to, to bushfires and flood emergencies. And they posted on social media that they had come together. To do a preparation session and, it took me two minutes to jump onto social media and just, give them some positive reinforcement.

[00:11:39] Fergus McLachlan: I think I said something like, great to see you doing this preparation. I know that people in Victoria are grateful and you'll do a great job. Hope you're not needed. Something like that probably took me two minutes to talk, but that went that that went through the group as I was told later that they, the general knows we're here.

[00:11:56] Fergus McLachlan: And, and as I said, positive things about it. So that two minute intervention [00:12:00] on, on social media or a modern communication tool couldn't ripple out and have much more profound impact than you, than you understand. So I think leaders have got to adjust their, their techniques to the scale of their organization, but also to the modern tools that are available.

[00:12:15] Tim Whybourne: Yeah, right. I've worked in a lot of bureaucracies over my career so far. And when I was younger, management didn't have a feel for what was happening on the front. And these are big organizations, so these are organizations where you're never going to get to meet the CEO. How do you manage that to make sure, leading from the top, you actually have a feel for what's happening on the front and feel relevant or like you've got their back?

[00:12:38] Fergus McLachlan: Great question, and I think as every leader can convince themselves that they're Every moment of their time can be justified sitting behind their desk in their office, right? So you there's always something that you can do that's important and meaningful and often it is important and meaningful, right?

[00:12:54] Fergus McLachlan: It's reading audit reports or you're understanding governance or culture in your organization. But the [00:13:00] best leaders that I've encountered have always, segmented their time into, I had a great general who was my boss in Afghanistan, American general. And he talked about this, he used the term battle rhythm, but you might, you might, you might just turn organizational rhythm.

[00:13:14] Fergus McLachlan: I was his senior campaign planner and I needed access to him to get approval for really big plans. We were doing drawdown planning from, 120, 000 president Obama had told us we had, I had to get down to, The 15, 000 by the end of the following year. So these were really big issues that I needed access to him.

[00:13:31] Fergus McLachlan: But he said to me, Gus, you, you will get me on, on, in these blocks on, Thursday afternoon and Friday morning, but for the rest of the week, I'm out visiting frontline troops. And I'm visiting my senior leaders and I'm visiting the Afghan government. And he did that in a manageable, repeatable way.

[00:13:46] Fergus McLachlan: So I didn't, I didn't chase him for the rest of the week. Cause I knew what his rhythm would be, if you like. And, and he would come in having spoken to the frontline, what is their lived experience? Is it different to what we're [00:14:00] perceiving through the, through the written report? So I took that. Method into my leadership.

[00:14:05] Fergus McLachlan: So I made sure in, in, off as often as I could and sometimes it changed, but I'll spend the first part of the week out, literally going out into, to visit units in the Torres Strait or, being on the ground with them, do a, do their, their water insertion where they would be telling me about the equipment that they had already.

[00:14:22] Fergus McLachlan: Any problems with maintenance or any, any ideas they had for use of drones and innovation. And then I would spend I would guarantee to my staff that I'd spend a couple of days with them back in Sydney where, where we would, develop the plans for the future and, and, and the following year and the resources, budget planning, all that stuff.

[00:14:39] Fergus McLachlan: And then I made time as well for. For, for circling back with my leadership group so that we were specifically talking and I understood their intent. So I think as a leader, you've got to fight to protect that time. I went off to borrow after I left the military. And, one of the first things I did was I went for a day riding in a, in a concrete truck.

[00:14:59] Fergus McLachlan: With with an [00:15:00] operator to find out what his lived reality was. I spent a night. I didn't, I didn't understand this when I volunteered, by the way, Tim, asphalt is done at night, right? So they don't disrupt the traffic in Sydney. Well, I, I went volunteering to go with an asphalt crew. I didn't understand that that meant starting at 11 and finishing at four in the morning, rookie mistake, but you know, landing standing by the road at, at two in the morning.

[00:15:20] Fergus McLachlan: People say to you things that are that you won't find, through the chain of command, just things like we wanted to increase female participation in our workforce. Just where did they go to the toilet at 2 in the morning when they're standing beside the road in, in a freeway in Western Sydney, those kind of things.

[00:15:38] Fergus McLachlan: So it's, it's, it's, it's carving out time and fighting to protect it because there's always reasons. Why you why you should be in the office anchored to your chair with your, with your EA or your team, coming at you. 

[00:15:51] Tim Whybourne: Military has a reputation for being very regimented, strict, rules based.

[00:15:57] Tim Whybourne: Is that directly transferable through to an [00:16:00] organization? I know you advise a lot of companies now. Obviously, the culture is probably a little bit different, but how relatable are the two? 

[00:16:06] Fergus McLachlan: It's a great question. And it's one I get asked a lot, this thing we call command and control leadership in the military, I would say there are times in the military where that is important when you're.

[00:16:18] Fergus McLachlan: When you're absolutely in the execution phase of something that is what, let's say your movement is synchronized with the actions of another, whether it's artillery that has to land at a certain time, whether you've got to get your forces in place to cover the movement of somebody else, whether it's logistic support to an organization that might be running short of ammunition, there's not a lot of room for it.

[00:16:42] Fergus McLachlan: You know, engaged discussion around that. But that's actually a very small minority of the time military people spend. And I think, what most people would be surprised about is that the reality for the, for the vast majority of my time as a, as a leader, the leaders I admired most were thoroughly modern.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] Fergus McLachlan: engaged, authentic, accessible people. And they, I, I felt like I had a voice. I, I could be listened to that was a safe environment for ideas. Now it wasn't, it's not always the case like in any organization, but if I hadn't had that, I would have left. I, I know myself well enough to know.

[00:17:16] Fergus McLachlan: And so actually I think what the military do is understand the time for dialogue, engagement, discussion, development. Mentoring, training, development, and then there's this execution piece, which you've also got to be good at, and I do find, and I don't, I don't have that many data points around Australian business yet that I feel like I should be making sweeping generalizations.

[00:17:40] Fergus McLachlan: But I do feel some businesses are very good at strategy making, they, whether they hire in McKinsey's or where they got their own team, and they're very good at coming up with plans. But then they're not that great at execution. So we've got to find that balance between engagement, discussion, participation, safe dialogue.

[00:17:57] Fergus McLachlan: But we've also got to find a way to [00:18:00] actually get some stuff done. And so I think military people stride that balance fairly well. 

[00:18:04] Tim Whybourne: We come across a lot of ex military management that make very successful careers with themselves. I see a lot in logistics, but probably for obvious reasons, but certainly in leadership positions as well.

[00:18:15] Tim Whybourne: So, are there any key lessons you think you've brought from the Army into the private sector, that you think are relateable?. 

[00:18:24] Fergus McLachlan: Well, look, one of the things I think that the military does very well is what, what we call intent based leadership. So, and, and, a lot of the, the current, generation, the millennial generation of workers they want to ask that question of why.

[00:18:37] Fergus McLachlan: So what, as leaders, I who've grown up being used to just sort of tell their organizations what to do. One of the things I think the military is quite good at is always trying to understand. We were always taught to try and understand our bosses. Intent two levels up. So you're always trying to understand two up.

[00:18:54] Fergus McLachlan: What is my boss's boss? What are the challenges they face? What are their [00:19:00] objectives? What direction have they've given so that when I'm making decisions down here, I don't have to run back and check all the time. I know that what I'm doing is I'm aligned with that. With that leader, a couple of levels up.

[00:19:11] Fergus McLachlan: So finding a leadership environment where, when you give direction, you're giving enough direction so that people two down can understand your why. And then, empowering people then to start making decisions and act. And, on a, on a dispersed modern battlefield, you, you, with electronic warfare and jamming and, and all sorts of things, you can't run back to head office.

[00:19:34] Fergus McLachlan: To keep asking that question, what should I do if the situation changes? So I think businesses could, could do a lot more, be more agile. If there was a lot better understanding from top to bottom of the, why the intent, this is our challenge. This is why we're doing things. This is why my priorities are what they are.

[00:19:51] Fergus McLachlan: So, I, I encourage leaders not just to be good at the down and in, right? I'm an expert in this process. I'll deliver that. I want leaders [00:20:00] who are good down and in, but also who left and right are talking to their peers in the business and finding ways to collaborate and be efficient, but then also can be aware above them.

[00:20:09] Fergus McLachlan: How do they know what they're doing and their part of the business is fitting into the broader strategy and the challenges that the, the CEO or the board might be facing. So I think just encouraging that 360 degree leadership approach and young leaders who come through. Fighting to know what's what's happening ahead of them will end up having much more productive careers than those just wait to be told. 

[00:20:34] Tim Whybourne: Completely agree.

[00:20:35] Tim Whybourne: Sounds pretty simple, but I think a lot of it comes down to communication as a personal life as as well. But certainly in in business, if later can't communicate to the employees what they're actually trying to achieve, then going to create a lot of. I don't know, anxiety or or maybe not the desired outcomes, but...

[00:20:50] Fergus McLachlan: No, 100%.

[00:20:51] Fergus McLachlan: We talk about three rules of real estate, right? Location, location, location. Three rules of leadership. Communicate, communicate, communicate. You, you, you, you, [00:21:00] you almost got to be bleeding from the nose and ears having heard your own Message back in your own head so often to really believe that it's penetrated right down through to the, to the, to all levels of the business.

[00:21:11] Tim Whybourne: Over your 37 year career in the army, were there any particularly when you got to the more senior ends, were there any kind of key challenges that stick in your minds and how you overcame them? 

[00:21:22] Fergus McLachlan: Look, innovation is a, is a, is a challenge in, in big firstly, big organizations and organizations that pride themselves on tradition and structure that, that have good basis, organization like the military organizers in, in companies and battalions and brigades speak for very good reason over, over a very long period of time, they've proven to be size of structures that leaders can manage, can, can wield if you like on a, on a battlefield.

[00:21:51] Fergus McLachlan: And, and some of those cultures that we talked about around, around leadership and. and command and control style. So when you [00:22:00] want to come in and, and, and, and innovate and transform, and when you're saying that, digital communication modern bat, what we call battle management systems that allow everybody to visualize the environment through drones and from space and from other things for, having the organization say, well, all of this has changed.

[00:22:18] Fergus McLachlan: We've got this incredible now. Transparency of the battle space, for example, have we gone back and asked our our structures, processes, leadership tools? Are they still valid? Should we innovate? So, one of the challenges that I face and I think. often leaders in big organizations faces, can you adapt as fast as the technology or as fast as the threat situation?

[00:22:43] Fergus McLachlan: And there's an argument that militaries are always very good at preparing for the last war. And I think that's an expression of that, that they are, that, that it's difficult to change. So my, my biggest challenge over my career was trying to, trying to drive, Identify the right innovation [00:23:00] opportunity and then turn the ocean liner fast enough to make up for that.

[00:23:04] Fergus McLachlan: So recognizing that the cyber security domain was was going to, be a very significant aspect of warfighting. We're now got a contested. Space environment where all of the major powers on the planet have demonstrated the ability to to go to war in space. What does that mean for our access to communications, GPS and so on?

[00:23:25] Fergus McLachlan: And, and, we're seeing the emergence of AI and quantum computing are going to fundamentally change. Things in my old world and so leaders have got this real challenges, the ocean line is used to turning in big leisurely circles, but maybe we need to be able to turn faster. So I think that's, that's probably the biggest challenge I faced over my career.

[00:23:44] Fergus McLachlan: Great people, very good at what they did. But didn't necessarily want to wanted to embrace or perhaps face up to the rate of change that was needed. 

[00:23:55] Tim Whybourne: Where do you think the future of warfare is heading? Are we ever going to get to a point [00:24:00] where it's not us killing each other and it's kind of drones destroying each other?

[00:24:05] Tim Whybourne: Is that where it's heading or where do you see it heading? 

[00:24:08] Fergus McLachlan: Well, yeah, a combination of both, Tim. I mean, I gave a talk recently at the Royal Society of New South Wales. I called it Drones Over the Trenches. Because what we're seeing in Ukraine is this combination of, uh, the absolute modern warfare tools where drones are pursuing individual soldiers around the battlefield, like some, thing that would have been science fiction only 10 years ago, but soldiers are still in living in trenches covered in mud and, and really austere conditions because there's, they sort of say that the, that the fundamental nature of war.

[00:24:42] Fergus McLachlan: isn't changing. It's a, it's a contest between, human beings, but the character of war changes. So drones, AI space and cyber. So I think that's what we have to understand will be the reality. There will be there will be amazing advances in, in drone technology. For example, at the [00:25:00] moment, you're still in most of the drone footage we see out of Afghan, out of Ukraine.

[00:25:04] Fergus McLachlan: Is this first person view, they call them FPV drones, where a pilot with the goggles is still flying the drone. Well, I guarantee you five years from now, that'll be an AI driven drone that will just have the, the, the image of the, of the target that they want to pursue. And they won't need to be a human in that loop.

[00:25:22] Fergus McLachlan: And you'll look, you'll launch the drone off and it won't matter if there's. Jamming or interference or whatever, that drone will find its way. That's a very scary prospect. Is when we've got this the advent of really powerful AI. We're spending, we're about to spend many, many hundreds of billions of dollars of Australia's taxpayers money on giant submarines, to go beneath the surface of the earth.

[00:25:44] Fergus McLachlan: Already we're seeing the emergence of undersea and surface drones. The book, the Russian black sea sea fleet has been largely defeated by Ukrainian use of, of maritime and air drone systems have been forced back into port. So w [00:26:00] we're, we're, we're seeing a rapid transition, but sadly I still feel at the heart of, of war will be this human suffering.

[00:26:06] Fergus McLachlan: And we say, we're seeing this in Gaza. We saw it in Afghanistan and Iraq where. What you can have all the technology in the world, but at the heart of this are still the reality of kind of a brutal exchange that humans have the ability to do to each other. 

[00:26:19] Tim Whybourne: There's a book recently put out, a lot of people are talking about it, and I cannot remember the name of it now, but it's talking about the prospect of total annihilation, how close everyone's fingers are to the the trigger of nuclear weapons around the world, and how quickly that could cause a chain reaction.

[00:26:34] Tim Whybourne: What probability would you apply to, to that being a likely scenario? 

[00:26:38] Fergus McLachlan: I'm an optimist. It might sound strange. Broadly, human behavior is trending in a positive direction. So if we, if we map out the number of people dying in, in violent, dying, violent deaths in, in war or civil uprising or civil war, over the last century, the numbers of people experiencing [00:27:00] That have decreased markedly.

[00:27:02] Fergus McLachlan: We've seen increases in life expectancy decreases in child mortality, access to clean water. Those things are trending in a positive direction, but it's not even right. So I think it's probably like a sign curve where it's heading in the right direction, but there are upticks. And I think sadly we're in an uptick moment at the moment where some other factors are re emerging nationalism, populism misinformation.

[00:27:28] Fergus McLachlan: And we're struggling to grapple with how misinformation can travel so quickly now because social media penetrates. The days when, when I was young, probably dating myself here, but, it's on you at seven o'clock in our household, we would hear the noise of the ABC news promo coming on.

[00:27:46] Fergus McLachlan: And my parents would be watching ABC news in the lounge room. And, if I was interested, I had to gravitate down to that room to hear what was happening in the world. Well, now 14, 15 year old kids are being radicalized in their [00:28:00] bedroom because they have a device in their hand, which is an incredible source of.

[00:28:04] Fergus McLachlan: Both information and misinformation. So we are in a, in a period of, of of, of let's call it sort of pendulum swinging back towards some, some dangerous behavior and, the incidents in the US with the, the, the attack on president Trump's life, these, oh, sorry, our president former president Trump's life these are just examples of this polarization from, from all we know about the young person involved He doesn't seem to have been anything particularly unusual.

[00:28:34] Fergus McLachlan: 20 year old, doesn't appear to be overly radicalized, but, but access to the guns that were in his household. And yet here he finds himself, we find him on a roof, shooting at one of the democratic, or the candidates for democratic election. So we, we are, this is a dangerous period because of this polarization of information.

[00:28:54] Fergus McLachlan: And I think all of us as civil society leaders, and we're all privileged, to be leaders in one form or other, [00:29:00] I think these are the conversations that we've got to have and got a demand on government is to say, how are we responding? We can't just be passive in the face of this very dangerous misinformation, radical behavior, some of the language that's come out since the October 7 attacks in Israel these are flushing out some pretty disturbing behaviors.

[00:29:19] Fergus McLachlan: We've got to work out as a society, how we're going to deal with that. 

[00:29:23] Tim Whybourne: Do you have a view on how we potentially deal with that? 

[00:29:26] Fergus McLachlan: Leadership, so, so I feel like our, our, our, our leaders have got to take on these issues and they've actually got to also communicate in these modern forums. Unfortunately that's not.

[00:29:39] Fergus McLachlan: We kind of get the leaders in generational waves, both in business and politics and civil society. So we, we must understand the power of, of social media, handheld, these aren't phones anymore. These are handheld microprocessors with amazing access to information. So we must understand, what's coming down those channels and be able [00:30:00] to.

[00:30:00] Fergus McLachlan: Lead our way out of it. We've got to communicate things like, and I don't want to sound like some old conservative, but things like controlling the access our kids have to phones during school hours, for example. eminently sensible thing to me to say, we want you to focus on your, your learning and your social development skills as individuals at school.

[00:30:18] Fergus McLachlan: We're going to lock the phones away, understand why phones are important for safe travel home. And for your, your parents understand that, you're able to communicate with them if something goes wrong. I do think we have to, we have to think about the social media. that our that young people consume at what age and how influential it's being for youth mental health and for communications.

[00:30:39] Fergus McLachlan: So, as a, as a, what I call civil society, I have no interest in going into politics myself. So, so it's got to be, how do we have a conversation, with, with, with ourselves and our peers and our friends and our families and our politicians that have them. Enacting the kind of things that we need social cohesion.

[00:30:57] Fergus McLachlan: Australia is the best place to live on earth. I mean, I'm sure [00:31:00] you and many of your listeners have traveled every time I come back here. I count my blessing that I was fortunate to, to be born as an Australian citizen. I think we need to value that. And, and what we value is that we, we respect the rule of law, we have a robust democracy, but it is very safe and fair and representative.

[00:31:20] Fergus McLachlan: We, we, we trust our, our, our, police and judicial officials. We have a good governance system for business and those frameworks. We believe that everybody has a right to some freedoms, but also that comes with responsibility. Whatever that is about being a cohesive Australian, we better understand that because we're seeing this kind of cohesion unraveling in other places.

[00:31:44] Fergus McLachlan: And I do, I do worry about the United States on a social cohesion side. I actually believe America will continue to be an incredibly important country economically. It's a great innovator. We, the The, the apples and the starlings and the [00:32:00] and so on will continue to emerge there. But I do worry that that it's that it's starting to become a fragmented society, and we don't want to follow those aspects.

[00:32:10] Tim Whybourne: Yeah, there's no denying that that's happening. I've got two young kids. That's very front of my mind that. Ideally, I'd like them to grow up in a world or exist in a world that was better than the world that I grew up in and I have no complaints about what I grew up in, but I think it's actually going the other way and social media or access to media information or disinformation, I think, is potentially the, the key of a lot of the issues that we're, we're facing and it is a hard one to solve because everyone's got a platform and particularly yeah.

[00:32:37] Tim Whybourne: We're in a democracy where everyone's got freedom of speech, but maybe some people shouldn't have freedom of speech. I don't know. That's probably a bit controversial, but. 

[00:32:44] Fergus McLachlan: No, no, look, I mean, what I say to people is rights come with responsibilities. And so, when we, when we, when we jump in a car, we all, we've all accepted that there's this process where we have to be tested as to whether we're safe to operate that vehicle.

[00:32:57] Fergus McLachlan: And then when we operate it, we stop at traffic lights and we [00:33:00] obey stop signs and so on. That's That's this amazing connection between the right that come from owning a car, freedom to go wherever I want. And as a young person, I can go and visit my friends and things, but the responsibility to not harm other road users.

[00:33:13] Fergus McLachlan: So how do we take that into our, into our broad understanding of how we exist as Australian citizens? We have amazing freedoms in this country and we, we, we live in a wonderful place. But. That does mean that we, we, we have to apply the rules of law and we have to, we have to participate in our democracy by going to vote and we, and so on and so on.

[00:33:33] Fergus McLachlan: So to me, it's just making sure that young people understand that they have tremendous freedoms in this country, but they also have some responsibilities as a, as a citizen to make, make life safe and enjoyable for everybody else as well. 

[00:33:47] Tim Whybourne: I agree. As far as Australian borders go, what do you think the biggest risk is to our sovereignty?

[00:33:53] Tim Whybourne: Is it potential invasion or war on our soils at some point in the future? 30 years away, [00:34:00] should we be spending on, on the army and defense force or is it cyber security? Do we need to have a huge military budget, defense budget? Do you think? What are your views there? 

[00:34:09] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, it's a huge set of questions. So in the first instance, I think the, the most recent defense strategic review commissioned by the Labor government when they came to power has expressed this pretty well, I believe.

[00:34:21] Fergus McLachlan: So what, what they have said is that there is, is not. a great threat of the land mass of Australia being attacked. It's highly unlikely. But there is a threat of that Australia can be coerced by powerful nations. Through our interaction with the world. And the example that deputy prime minister miles used was Fuel liquid energy.

[00:34:42] Fergus McLachlan: We, we import almost 100 percent of our liquid fuels from Singapore. So, and I, and I think what most Australians would be shocked to know, we have about seven days of holdings of, of fuel in Australia. So, what that means is you only have to disrupt Australia for seven days fuel access. [00:35:00] So, so whether it's a naval blockade or a couple of submarines to say that Australian life would change incredibly.

[00:35:07] Fergus McLachlan: Radically within seven days, if we didn't have access to fuel from Singapore we're a global trading nation where most of our wealth comes from well, we're three things they say where, we're a mine, we're a bedroom and we're a schoolhouse. So if you can disrupt Australia's outgoing trade if you can disrupt incoming foreign students or tourists, then Australia can be very significantly better off.

[00:35:31] Fergus McLachlan: Coerced if you like made to change our behavior. So I think that the message that Australia needs to have a confident, assertive middle power status that says, if you want to attempt to coerce us by blocking our access to those things, we will. We will, you will incur a cost, right? And this is this notion of deterrence.

[00:35:53] Fergus McLachlan: If you want to take us on, there will be a cost. Now, what, what does that mean in real terms? And this comes to the [00:36:00] question of why we would put 300 billion of tax money into a nuclear submarine program, for example, the signal that we are giving through that acquisition. If someone attempts to coerce our access to energy or to global trading markets or to free movement of people, we could potentially do the same in return, meaning we could stop liquid energy coming from Middle Eastern Africa into China, for example.

[00:36:29] Fergus McLachlan: And so, so I think this, this is the defense position that the Australian people are paying for is a defense force that is capable enough to say to any prospective adversary and I, I just named China, but, and then they're the most likely, but, but we certainly seen belligerent behavior from Russia and North Korea as well.

[00:36:48] Fergus McLachlan: And the message is, If you want to do harm to Australians, we will do harm to you. That, that, that is sufficient enough that we think that's pretty bad idea. Leave us alone. [00:37:00] So we don't want war. We want to, we want to robust posture. Now that unfortunately in this day and age is not a cheap thing that, that just to give people an example, the, the, there is an arms race already going.

[00:37:11] Fergus McLachlan: We, we're not the cause of that. Chinese Navy will increase in size by the size of the French Navy. In new capability every year. So we're not, this, the French Navy, I think is probably the, in, in the top 10 navies in the world, the Chinese Navy is getting bigger by the size of the French Navy every year, whether we do anything or not.

[00:37:31] Fergus McLachlan: And so these are, this is the, this is the world that we find ourselves in. And you talked about cyber and space. I would put to you that conflict is already started in cyberspace. So the idea of the old days when you waited by the scratchy radio to hear Winston Churchill come onto the radio and say, I regret to inform the people of the United Kingdom and the colonies that we are at war with Germany.

[00:37:55] Fergus McLachlan: Well, we're not going to get that this time because conflict is already underway. We're [00:38:00] seeing state powers using cyberspace for criminal to enable criminal behavior, intellectual property theft. We're probably seeing the insertion of malware into our civil infrastructure so that when they need to, they can cause enormous disruption to the system.

[00:38:16] Fergus McLachlan: power generation, sewerage hospital key hospital systems and so on. So whether we like it or not, that war is on and we need to do something about it. Are we doing enough by the way, as an Australian society? The answer is no, we're very, very good at What we do, but we're very small. We're finding it very hard to recruit good people to go and do that for in government service when they can earn so much in the private sector.

[00:38:39] Fergus McLachlan: So cyberspace is a genuine concern. I think Australians underestimate how vulnerable we are to space. Everything we do, including the communications we're having now, our, our Google Maps, our online banking share transactions, all of which are enabled by GPS signals, which come from space, which can be disrupted [00:39:00] very easily.

[00:39:01] Fergus McLachlan: So these, sadly, this kind of contest. Probably not conflict yet, but contest is well underway already. 

[00:39:07] Tim Whybourne: From an investment perspective, we're seeing a lot of space technology pop up in Australia. I think, I don't know where we sit on the global leaderboards, but I'm sure we're about above our average. Are you taking an active interest in space tech outside of military?

[00:39:21] Fergus McLachlan: It's one of the things about this government that I disagree with. They have they have reduced investment in space at a time when I think we should be going the other way. Part, a couple of reasons. We have a tremendous advantage of our geography. We happen to have a huge landmass that's safe and stable that sits under key.

[00:39:40] Fergus McLachlan: Key space pathways or highways. So we, we should be making more of that. And we're seeing the emergence of some launch companies in Northern Australia. I think we, we have an opportunity to be a really key player in launch in Australia, but we also seeing the emergence space spaces change.

[00:39:59] Fergus McLachlan: We used to have [00:40:00] to have the technology to get something as big as a Volkswagen minivan in space that, that, that takes a lot of infrastructure, big rockets, big energy companies like planet, which is a small surveillance company that launches cube sets. No, no bigger than the loaf of bread.

[00:40:17] Fergus McLachlan: Starlink is a, is a satellite constellation of thousands of cubes at devices. So space technology is changing that makes it much more accessible for Australian technology. Our universities are already. proving that they're capable of developing and launching those technologies. And we've got some great Australian ability in, in kind of hypersonics, which is the, the operation of, of, of aircraft, whether they be missiles, cruise missiles, or civilian aircraft through the, the, through very high altitudes at very high speeds.

[00:40:48] Fergus McLachlan: So we've got it, we've got an opportunity, but as you, you live in the world of access to, to capital, right? And, and that's our challenge. So while we have great. We've got great [00:41:00] geography. We aren't necessarily saying the capital available to companies working in this space because our scale is smaller.

[00:41:07] Fergus McLachlan: And so if you can't find a way to get into American supply chains or broader American businesses, you do struggle down here. And I think when, when people talk about governments picking winners, they've got to put enough energy into a sector to get it through that. Critical value of death, if you like before it's viable.

[00:41:23] Fergus McLachlan: And I'm not sure we're there yet. 

[00:41:25] Tim Whybourne: I mean, is that because there's no, no budget for it or just this strategy is not pointing that direction? 

[00:41:31] Fergus McLachlan: Probably both. Yeah, I think, as I said, I think the current government's underdone the strategy around the importance of space, which probably then links to struggle to necessarily get investors to, to bring their capital when the signals are not, as clear as they, as they could be.

[00:41:48] Fergus McLachlan: And so I think that's, that's just one, even our Kiwi cousins, I think are probably ahead of us in some aspects of space launch, for example, because there's a clarity often that comes from [00:42:00] being smaller and more agile, but I think we can do better. 

[00:42:02] Tim Whybourne: Are you saying the private sector take much of an interest or plugging the gap where the government's not, or is this just simply.

[00:42:08] Tim Whybourne: Not enough of the private capital is obviously very focused on what the bottom line is and generating a profit as opposed to increasing security. 

[00:42:16] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, look, there's lots of needs for private capital, right? So I'd love to see I mean, we've got to understand the importance of, data center and cloud.

[00:42:24] Fergus McLachlan: We've got the understanding importance of cyber security and cyber tools. We've got to understand the implications of the AI kind of, digitally enabled economy with, with analytic tools and, and, so that'll lead to smart cities and smart buildings. And so, capital can go in all sorts of directions.

[00:42:41] Fergus McLachlan: I think Starlink is a great example of what really disruptive change. This, that technology is, is so immensely powerful. Powerful. I mean, the impact it's had on the war in Ukraine is, is, is, is unbelievable that, just as a superpower that in the past we would have said could shut [00:43:00] down the, the digital governance economy and, and military capability of a small neighbor without with the emergence of Starlink that enabled them to get their government activities in into the cloud in neighboring countries, but still access that information.

[00:43:15] Fergus McLachlan: We had military leaders who came up with incredibly innovative ways to almost create Uber like marketplaces for artillery targets, you had drones being operated by, civilians and militia detecting a target, posting Starlink enabled network, you could have an artillery unit that would fire on that target within minutes.

[00:43:35] Fergus McLachlan: It takes us in our military. Much longer than that through established digital pathways. So Starlink has just, just disrupted both, business, military and government. So what is, what's Australia's opportunity in, in, in space? I, I, I, I'm worried about the GPS network of satellites.

[00:43:54] Fergus McLachlan: So actually our adversaries and, and also partners, the Europeans, the Chinese, the Russians [00:44:00] have all now got GPS equivalents. Some of which are more advanced technologically, because GPS has been up there for a long time. We're very reliant on that kind of technology. Should Australia be thinking about a low, but earth network Starlink like network that we can guarantee.

[00:44:18] Fergus McLachlan: Access to what they call precision navigation and timing. These are all, they're not cheap questions, but they're still questions we've got to answer. 

[00:44:25] Tim Whybourne: Now, they're becoming more relevant or more asked after the supply of disruptions we saw during COVID. So, we encouraged everyone to think about their supply chains as to space also.

[00:44:35] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, it does. So, this notion of Well, we had a, we had an amazing period of, let's call it 40 years of, of relatively uninterrupted globalization. So the, the creation of global supply chains where something could be produced at the location that it is most effective or efficient to do so, and then shipped very quickly somewhere else in the world, or either be assembled or delivered, that disruption is real and it's going to [00:45:00] continue.

[00:45:00] Fergus McLachlan: And I think the best businesses are now finding ways to make sure that they are friend shoring. On shoring whatever the right decision for a business, if you're not doing that diversifying, they're all easy things to say, but they're much more difficult things to do. But I think we're seeing the emergence of countries like Vietnam and India as alternatives to China as sensible business practice because you don't want to be.

[00:45:24] Fergus McLachlan: All eggs in one basket. If we have this decoupling or the fracturing of our single global trading system. I think those are the sorts of conversations businesses need to be doing, in the military. We do a lot of assumption based planning or contingency planning. If this is to happen.

[00:45:42] Fergus McLachlan: How would we respond? We, you do that almost in a continual cycle. Companies like Royal Dutch Shell are famous globally for running that scenario based planning that, that led to their understanding of the, of the oil shock in the early seventies global financial crisis in the, in the two thousands.

[00:45:59] Fergus McLachlan: So [00:46:00] those companies that are thinking like that. are going to outperform those companies that are not. 

[00:46:05] Tim Whybourne: So what inspired your transition from military into commerce? 

[00:46:10] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, it's a great question. So I, I, I, I guess like in other businesses, we sort of, I was in that up or out framework. It gets quite a pretty, quite crowded at the top of organizations.

[00:46:20] Fergus McLachlan: So when the time came for me to, to step aside there's a number of options. You can go back into defense industry and there's some, there's some great roles that my, some of my peers took running either big American companies in Australia or Australian defense industry companies.

[00:46:35] Fergus McLachlan: A lot go into that kind of consulting. And we've seen through the, through the, the, the so called war on consulting that government's having that, just how much work was being done. I took a different path. I was always curious. To learn new things. So I wanted to come out into, into industry and I learn a couple of things.

[00:46:54] Fergus McLachlan: One did my leadership, we talked about leadership early on, did my leadership actually work in this [00:47:00] different environment? And were there skills that I could bring from that world? Things like. Contingency planning execution, helping with those sort of things that would be useful to business and my love of innovation.

[00:47:13] Fergus McLachlan: Could I help connect good ideas to kind of industry and opportunity? So that's where I set out. No, it's not an easy transition because as you kind of indicated, not a lot. A lot of businesses aren't necessarily sure. What a senior military person would bring to broader commercial Australia, but, but I feel like I'm making some headway on that and I, and I think I've got, people like me have got something to offer.

[00:47:38] Fergus McLachlan: I've also, through this period discovered your world, which is, Understanding the importance of of capital. So private equity and and being able to advise in my part of my role with with Bondi Partners, the firm set up by Joe Hockey. We've got a small investment fund that is committed to helping with defense and national security and [00:48:00] dual use technology.

[00:48:01] Fergus McLachlan: So I'm really enjoying that role of trying to identify the right. Innovative businesses that then are worthy of investment, so they can go ahead. And I think that I was privileged to sit at your presentation recently to your clients and, understanding the role that private capital is having globally so, so then to help, businesses that are from my old world understand and connect to that is a, is a, is a really privileged thing to be able to do.

[00:48:27] Fergus McLachlan: So it was, it was curiosity and looking forward and trying to find sort of some new pathways rather than. Stay in that that existing kind of circle of, of, of organizational behavior. Now that, that said, I still love my old, what I'm, I'm, I've been invited to mentor the army futures war game in a couple of weeks time.

[00:48:47] Fergus McLachlan: I'll be going back down to, to act as a gray beard for, for that group, because again, it's part of my passion to make help make them better and to help them innovate. So I've got a, still got a foot in both worlds. 

[00:48:59] Tim Whybourne: And coming [00:49:00] from military to the private sector, we've spoken a lot about the skills that you bring from the military that can really help the private sector.

[00:49:07] Tim Whybourne: Do you think there's anything that flows back the other way? Something, anything that the private sector does particularly well that maybe the army or the defence force could think about? 

[00:49:14] Fergus McLachlan: I absolutely do. And a number and some good interactions occurring. The current chief of the Army General Simon Stewart has established a partnership with with BHP where they're doing a lot of shared understanding of leadership development and and so on.

[00:49:27] Fergus McLachlan: But I think there's a lot more. I would love to see Commonwealth officials. Get get much better at their commercial skills. So acquisition in defense is a very difficult and challenging area. I know there are lessons from private industry that we could take across into that world. So understanding risk and commercial behaviors and and and true developing partnerships.

[00:49:53] Fergus McLachlan: In in business, the best relationships are no longer sort of customer supplier. They are partnerships [00:50:00] that are mutually beneficial. So I think there's a lot of that we could also take back into my old world and there's a there's a desire, but in part, they're so busy now with the rate of change in the world.

[00:50:12] Fergus McLachlan: It's almost like they don't have time to stop and look outside for other ideas. So we've got to find a way to help. Officials that are in government, both, both government itself and in the commonwealth officials, how do we help them understand, what business does better while they're still incredibly busy?

[00:50:31] Fergus McLachlan: We've got, we've got this national shipbuilding and submarine building endeavor that frankly, if we get it wrong, is going to be catastrophic. So, can we do more? The help some of that actually might be trying to bring private equity in a private capital in, can they, are there things that industry or that the market can pay for that government doesn't have to, you know, something like a shipyard or or a dry dock or logistics facility doesn't have to be developed by government or the ways that we can do that in [00:51:00] partnership all the way through to the, the, the processes of acquisition Using, modern digital methods and, and best practice around procurement and so on.

[00:51:08] Fergus McLachlan: I think, I think there's a lot more that could go that way as well. 

[00:51:11] Tim Whybourne: So you're building high performance teams is something that you've been doing for a long time. And I think a lot of people would be very interested in what do you think the key components are building a high performance team or what are the building blocks you need?

[00:51:23] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, look, it's the thing I pride myself on and I think it's something that the Australian military is pretty good at. I think we've got one of the best small armies in the world, but I've also had the privilege of working alongside some of the best from other countries, UK US, special forces from, from sort of Navy SEALs all the way through to, to to, to, uh, British S. A. S. And so on Air Force culture. A lot of lessons there. So, I think there's a number of things that come out of that of that of that experience. And one is this is actually the use. The use of team is really important. So creating [00:52:00] leadership's leadership's not a a solitary activity.

[00:52:02] Fergus McLachlan: It's a team sport. So while the responsibility that senior leaders hold, is is real and unique and can be quite lonely, the ability to actually get a team to cooperate together to achieve an outcome that is You know, the old synergistic effect, right, is more than the inputs. And that actually means that you've got to have some expectations on leaders that they don't just focus down and in.

[00:52:27] Fergus McLachlan: I do see a lot of leaders who are very good at what they do, but pay no attention to the needs of the other members of the leadership team. Can I do something in my team? That will make the performance of my adjacent business unit better. Can I cooperate with one of the cross cutting functions finance HR, a business performance that will actually pass on a best practice idea that may be able to be passed over to another part of the business while that I like looking good.

[00:52:56] Fergus McLachlan: Cause my unit of the business is going better, [00:53:00] but actually, can I be willing to give my ideas across and bring the whole organization up so that the team performs and that's, that's the sort of thing that we demand in the military, that we have that kind of sharing of ideas, that, that collaboration, the understanding of what my.

[00:53:16] Fergus McLachlan: My neighboring business unit is trying to do so that if something comes up that I can help them, I seize that opportunity without having to go through a byzantine approval process. I think they're the sorts of things. So, so first thing is, leadership's a team sport and team sport means sometimes individuals have to give up their personal aspirations.

[00:53:37] Fergus McLachlan: For the betterment of the team. By the way, I love, I'm an active follower of sport for many of these reasons, right? A lot of the behaviors and cultures that we see in successful teams, should should be crossing over into business. This idea that we're collectively more than we are as individuals.

[00:53:54] Fergus McLachlan: I think creating a safe environment where your subordinates feel [00:54:00] comfortable raising ideas with you, whether we could do things better, whether you as a leader might be doing something wrong or whether there's an opportunity. Not all leaders are comfortable with that. They want to, they want this sort of hierarchical separation on the boss.

[00:54:13] Fergus McLachlan: You'll do what you're told. I think the best teams now have a safe environment where, where we can challenge each other. And then at the end of the day, somebody has to make a decision and we have to do something and they can, that's when they come together as a team and say, got it. I've had my say, we've had a robust discussion.

[00:54:31] Fergus McLachlan: I feel like we've, we've all been heard. Now we're going to get on with doing what the boss decided. So, but leaders need to create that. I like, I love the term confident humility. So I like bosses who are confident that they've earned their right, that they've earned the job through merit. They're good enough, they know they're good enough to have won the position, but they're humble enough to admit they don't know everything.

[00:54:54] Fergus McLachlan: So can, can we as leaders come into the team and say, Hey, I deserve to be [00:55:00] here. I've, I've, I've, I've, I've got this job because I'm, I've got, I've accumulated lots of knowledge and experience, but I don't know everything. I don't, I may not know as much about cyber, or I might not know as much about X or Y.

[00:55:11] Fergus McLachlan: When I went into Borrell, it was a construction material company, I had to Google the difference between cement and concrete. Pretty fundamental question, right? When you're in that sector. So I, I had to be humble enough to know I needed to, I needed to go and understand what different. Gravel size in aggregate meant for business and why you would want choice and variety because all of that had implications for the customer.

[00:55:34] Fergus McLachlan: I knew nothing about that, but I felt like I had a fair bit that I could add in terms of communication, organizational efficiency organizational design. And so it's about being being confident. You've got something to say. But being humble enough to know when you need to ask. So they're just a few things that I think leaders can, can think about, confident humility, build a team and have expectations that people really work as a team with all the [00:56:00] full implications of what that what that involves and communicate, communicate, communicate.

[00:56:06] Fergus McLachlan: And so if you're, if you're not comfortable talking and telling stories and getting your message through, well, then work at it, find some, find some coaches or advisors who can help. 

[00:56:15] Tim Whybourne: A lot of the books I read on leadership say that you need to understand what motivates the person that you're leading and in private sector it's often one of two things, it's recognition or money.

[00:56:25] Tim Whybourne: Is it similar in the army? Are you encouraged to kind of understand what everyone wants? 

[00:56:31] Fergus McLachlan: People say to me, Gus I miss your service in the military and, and, and what I do miss is that shared sense of purpose. I pretty much knew every day that I worked in that 37 years that the people around me had the same purpose, which was to make Australia safer.

[00:56:46] Fergus McLachlan: The notion of service was understood. We did what we did because we, we believed in serving our country. Now, there were lots of, There was lots of enjoyment and there were rewards and there were other things that came with that. But, [00:57:00] but at the heart of it, I kind of knew that understanding it not always as clear in the private sector and that's, that's fair enough, right?

[00:57:07] Fergus McLachlan: But I do think purpose is increasingly important to the generations coming through now. The, the millennials are asking that question. Yes, I want to be well paid and I want to be recognized. And I want to be listened to, but I also want to feel like the organization I'm working for has a purpose and, and, that doesn't mean every, every company needs to be making nuclear fusion that will solve the world's environmental problems, companies that make things that make people feel better from cosmetics to, To sweet treats can have a purpose, right?

[00:57:40] Fergus McLachlan: We all need happiness and access to, to things that are good. And so I think as long as we understand that people do need to feel like what they're doing is important. I was very proud at Borrell that when you're making. The material that might go to line the tunnel under Sydney Harbour. You want your grandchildren [00:58:00] to be driving through that tunnel safely in 70 years time.

[00:58:03] Fergus McLachlan: So there was this real underlying feeling that the, that the importance of the integrity of our product was really. I love that. I came in late to an organization, but I love that, that sense that at no point can you undercut that quality because, the grandchildren in 70 years thing is, is really quite real.

[00:58:22] Fergus McLachlan: So yeah, I do think being understanding your purpose is a, is probably the one is one thing I do carry forward. And what drives me now I know is how do we make Australia more competitive, more resilient, more successful, there's the defense side in my old world. But now. I'd love to see the amazing innovation in Australian small businesses in our universities actually be mobilized.

[00:58:46] Fergus McLachlan: I'd love to see us make more things here. We've got this enormous opportunity with critical minerals, for example, to, to see more of the processing and exploitation here. We know we've got a key role in, in space throughout [00:59:00] geography. We've got some great cyber Mines in Australia, can we do more to mobilize that capability?

[00:59:06] Fergus McLachlan: We've got, we've got some Australian businesses that are leading the way in hypersonics manufacturer. Can we be. In niche areas, be global leaders. That's what drives me now. And I'm sure, many other business leaders feel, feel similar. 

[00:59:18] Tim Whybourne: I know you sit on a number of boards and government bodies at the moment.

[00:59:22] Tim Whybourne: Are you going to see pop up on any, any other boards? Is there any, do you have any room, additional capacity or what? Is there a particular area that you're, looking to get involved in? 

[00:59:32] Fergus McLachlan: Yeah, look, I shamelessly one of my objectives is I would like to to feel like I can make a contribution away from just pure defense industry.

[00:59:40] Fergus McLachlan: So I recognize that that's most likely to be in in in what I call operational businesses that have got, people, trucks, safety, culture those things. I think I've got a lot to offer in businesses that are trying to see themselves and improve in that area. And technology companies trying to trying to mobilize.

[00:59:58] Fergus McLachlan: So I am, [01:00:00] I'm always looking for those areas, partly to be a bit evangelical Tim, where I'd love people to know me and people like me who are coming out about it. I've got something to offer that will help Australia be competitive. And so, always, always on the hunt for, for that sort of that sort of opportunity to, to broaden my my impact outside of just defence and national security.

[01:00:23] Tim Whybourne: I heard it here first for anyone listening, but I might be looking for some ex Army board members. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you today. I'm sure the listeners have found it as fascinating as I have. So thank you so much for your time. I know you're a very busy man. Thank you for taking the time out of your day and sharing your wisdom with us.

[01:00:39] Tim Whybourne: I look forward to seeing what you, what you get up to next. So thank you. 

[01:00:43] Fergus McLachlan: Thanks Tim and thanks for your interest. And, and, and I think this is, this is what I call civil society. We, we, we're, we're, most of us are pretty privileged sort of leaders. How can we help make Australia more competitive?

[01:00:55] Fergus McLachlan: It's through good conversations like this and, and, and working [01:01:00] together.

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